Curse

JDRyder · Sep 03, 2008, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Salbat

Hero's aren't boring that's the thing you have to be very skilled to pull off somethings in fact it makes the game harder with hero's it's more of a challenge, playing with humans makes the game too easy.

so you saying if you had to pick a good guild team or heros you'd pick heros?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

So by your logic Heroes should be removed since Henchman make it more of a challenge?

agreed and i lol'ed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Salbat

Where did I say that? the hero's should be increased to 7 because that introduces more challenge.

if you want a challenge why dont you pug it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schmerdro

Some of you mentioned that you've had a few very good experiences with PuG's... but imo those are balanced out by the times when PuG groups have people that are negatively affected by their environment (also known as a**holes) and use GW to vent out their anger. I've met these type of people who show what kind of person they really are about in the middle of the respective area... at which point you have to ask yourself "Should I endure their mental abuse and just finish this quest/mission or should I go back and waste the time I've already been playing?" So, in the end, I get this equation:

thats any internet game, and if they are assholes, theres this thing call mute.

pamelf · Sep 03, 2008, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Why do you think you dont see people in the outpost you are in? due to a lack of players? or due to a lack of poeple pugging? No1 is in the outpost cause they just get there and H/H it w/o looking for a party.

That was some interesting selective quoting you did on my post there.

In response, the reason people don't PUG (as said in the part of my post you chose not to quote) is simply because as I said it took me close to two hours to fail a mission I did the first time through with masters with just H/H. Why would a player waste their time with a PUG when they can already do everything themselves, and better...

I don't think you can blame the advent of heroes on people not being in outposts as the number of people around was already vastly diminished before Nightfall was ever released. Heroes are a relatively new part of the game, and the community was already thinning (at least as far as community looking for parties in outposts) by about two months after Factions came out. Henchmen on the other hand have been part of the game since the beginning, and have always been available for use. Even when it was just Henchmen people still preferred them to PUGs most of the time.

This is not just by chance, there is a very good reason for this, and the reason is as stated above; someone who has played this game for any great length of time (over 3 years in my case) simply doesn't have the patience to babysit a whole bunch of newbs through a mission they can do themselves in 1 minute. Harsh as that may sound to newer players, adding 7 heroes can only help them too in the long run. Whether we get 7 heroes or not will not change the fact that people are not going to PUG. To get us to do that you would have to remove all heroes and all henchmen, but if that happens then Anet loses I'd wager 90% of their player base.

Yes people may not want 7 heroes, but not giving us 7 heroes is never going to make us PUG.

R.Shayne · Sep 03, 2008, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

no theres a lack of people pugging cause every is using heros, whens the last time you have been to Kam,KC or LA? most the time dis 1 is full and the other 9 districts are full of people as well, and then you have to count in the Europe districts as well

You actually referenced a trade city as proof that the number of people playing the game has not declined? Go to a city that are not along the main path in Factions, the number of people in these city can usually be counted on one hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

no, more then 3/4 of the game using heros killed it. Not every pug was bad before heros. Sure theirs always going to be a bad pug and every 1 has a story about how a pug phailed but Before nightfall there were also a lot of good pugs.

This is subjective. You are basing the statement on your own experience were as in my experience before Factions was released I had already determined the best groups were Guild groups or henchmen group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Any 1 that played for 3 years will agree, before night fall, the game felt very different then it does now, it felt bigger cause you played with people. After night fall came out people just used heros and it started to seem smaller and smaller cause you didnt see as many people.

Nope, been playing since the very beginning and the game felt bigger to me because it took longer to level up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

If you dont like pugs find or make a guild that do the things you like to do dont ask for 7heros cause you want to stay away from pugs as much as you can, that will kill the game more then 3 heros did

What killed pugs was pugs, not heroes. The holy trinity and failure of pugs to realize that meta group builds might have room for improvement. When I started my first Mesmer I realized real quick that pugs were not an option in harder missions. It was the same when I started my Assassin, pugs were just not an option when Factions came out.

The failure of players to learn has been my biggest problem. I don't tell people how to play, I shouldn't have to, they should take the time to learn. When you have a player in later parts of Prophecies that does not have infused armor I feel they need to go back to the beginning and start over.

Anyone in the game can tell the game is loosing players and the reason for that is no knew stuff in over a year. Want to do the elite missions in Factions, I hope you have a PvE guild and I am not telling people to change guilds or create a guild, they may like what they have and just want to try out an elite mission. I have been in the same guild since June 2005, I am not changing now and I don't expect others to change either.

Did a little test: I went to 9 cities to see how many people were there.
Results:
The Aurios Mines = 0
Seafarer's Rest = 2
Eredon Terrace = 0
Bai Paasu Reach = 1
Amatz Basin = 1
Durheim Archives = 0
Brauer Academy = 1
Yahnur Market = 0
Lair of the Forgotten = 2

That means if you put all the towns together you only need one more person to have a full party. What was that argument against seven heroes, oh would kill pugs, opps already dead.

Shasgaliel · Sep 03, 2008, 01:11 PM // 13:11

With 7 heroes there will be less pugs. As simple as that.

I noticed one more thing opposed to that statement are mostly playes who do not PUG themselves. I do not get that. If you do not PUG how you can notice tendencies PUGs have? "I do not PUG because PUGs sucks but I am the expert on how the PUGs look like and how they behave". LOL

I know many of you likes solo play and 7 heroes will facilitate it. This is understandable but please not make yourself funny by discussing features of the game you do not take any part in. I personally do not like the logic " I failed with so many (usually 2-3) Pugs so lets make sure they disappear from the game".

I think it is true that there were less PUGs after introduction of heroes. They were then mostly present in the elite areas and a few harder missions. There are no more PUGs with lets walk around a bit and explore or lets do some stuff together etc. After Ursan nerf numbers of Pugs decreased again. Now with 7 heroes in my opinion it will be reduced even more. Since most of you do not Pug why the hell you want to make it harder for the ones who do (I mean newbies here, not most of you and not me)?

Again I do not see the reason for making this game even more single player oriented than it was before. I think it is shooting in one's own leg because if Anet notices that this game is only single player oriented with dead pvp then they will close their GW1 servers down. If you want this game to be still alive instead of constant complaining about it to Anet start making sure it is attractive to new players. They quit not because skills are unbalanced or Ursan is not nerfed but because of jerks and people not wanting to team up. More new players more money for Anet, more chances they will work a bit more on gw1 and close their servers a bit later. I think people posting themselves in helper list made a brilliant initiative. It is a pity that other ones want to sabotage that effort.

JDRyder · Sep 03, 2008, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

That was some interesting selective quoting you did on my post there.

In response, the reason people don't PUG (as said in the part of my post you chose not to quote) is simply because as I said it took me close to two hours to fail a mission I did the first time through with masters with just H/H. Why would a player waste their time with a PUG when they can already do everything themselves, and better...

Not all pugs are like that, and dont think ive ever have had a pug that has taken 2hrs for a mission. Also when was this pug before or after NF? even if NF ive had some good pugs, i did most of NF with pugs after it came out, not saying they are all good but it was not that hard do to do and have little to no hang ups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

I don't think you can blame the advent of heroes on people not being in outposts as the number of people around was already vastly diminished before Nightfall was ever released. Heroes are a relatively new part of the game, and the community was already thinning (at least as far as community looking for parties in outposts) by about two months after Factions came out. Henchmen on the other hand have been part of the game since the beginning, and have always been available for use. Even when it was just Henchmen people still preferred them to PUGs most of the time.

I almost never did henchmen partys, dont forget they have added new IA to them now, back then they sucked and even pugs were better. Also you cant change builds/flag henchmen like you can heros.

also yes i can blame heros for killing pugs, most the people posting here say they'd take heros over pugs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

This is not just by chance, there is a very good reason for this, and the reason is as stated above; someone who has played this game for any great length of time (over 3 years in my case) simply doesn't have the patience to babysit a whole bunch of newbs through a mission they can do themselves in 1 minute. Harsh as that may sound to newer players, adding 7 heroes can only help them too in the long run. Whether we get 7 heroes or not will not change the fact that people are not going to PUG. To get us to do that you would have to remove all heroes and all henchmen, but if that happens then Anet loses I'd wager 90% of their player base.

ive played for 3 years and have NP helping the new players. The other day i was doing some HM missions and some 1 was asking for help in the mission, so i stopped and did the mission for him. also told him to check out guru for help with build etc :O

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

Yes people may not want 7 heroes, but not giving us 7 heroes is never going to make us PUG.

nope but taking away all heros will

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

I noticed one more thing opposed to that statement are mostly playes who do not PUG themselves. I do not get that. If you do not PUG how you can notice tendencies PUGs have? "I do not PUG because PUGs sucks but I am the expert on how the PUGs look like and how they behave". LOL

i lol'ed IRL

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

You actually referenced a trade city as proof that the number of people playing the game has not declined? Go to a city that are not along the main path in Factions, the number of people in these city can usually be counted on one hand.

this helps my point. trade areas full of people, outpost no1 cause they just add H/H and go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

This is subjective. You are basing the statement on your own experience were as in my experience before Factions was released I had already determined the best groups were Guild groups or henchmen group.

i did all of factions with pugs and was done the 2nd or 3rd day the game came out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Nope, been playing since the very beginning and the game felt bigger to me because it took longer to level up.

no it didnt, you can level up a char in proph in a few hrs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

What killed pugs was pugs, not heroes. The holy trinity and failure of pugs to realize that meta group builds might have room for improvement. When I started my first Mesmer I realized real quick that pugs were not an option in harder missions. It was the same when I started my Assassin, pugs were just not an option when Factions came out.

yes they were.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Anyone in the game can tell the game is loosing players and the reason for that is no knew stuff in over a year. Want to do the elite missions in Factions, I hope you have a PvE guild and I am not telling people to change guilds or create a guild, they may like what they have and just want to try out an elite mission. I have been in the same guild since June 2005, I am not changing now and I don't expect others to change either.

some places you need a guild to do what can i say :O

Inner Salbat · Sep 03, 2008, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

if you want a challenge why dont you pug it?

Because as I said PuGs when you get a decent group make it too easy for one and too hard when there rubbish, some of the goals I have do not fit with PuGs when was the last time you saw someone requesting a team to go vanquish an area, not to mention 'some' dungeons as well in HM aren't even requested for at all along with missions as well.

I don't because I like to go at my own pace sometimes slow sometimes fast depends on the area.

I don't because it takes too flipping long to find all the people to put into a team and have long and tediously boring conversations about everyones build, I like to get on with things in fact I'm walking to the portal while I add the henchman, if you see me standing still in an outpost your privileged

I don't because I don't want long conversations about my skill bar, it does it's job well enough to vanquish 3 contents plus 3 areas of EoTN it will certainly work anywhere else, and if that skill bar isn't good enough for that area that did all that content as stated before, chances are I've already changed skills to suit the area before even joining a PuG.

I don't because my time is valuable if someone else stuffs up they've wasted my time, if I stuff up with my h/h then I've wasted mine, further more if I stuff up I've wasted someone else's time including my own, best solution take h/h and only have myself to blame.

I don't because I don't like the immature drawings of genitals on my radar, it's a sacred holy place that is only for use for directions, not the scrawlings of some demented 8 year old with a penis fetish.

I don't because I like to park up for any amount of time due to personal life interfering, heck I've stopped off in some areas for 15-20 minutes to practice playing a musical instrument just because I felt like it.

I don't because H/H past there uncalculatable faults are actually dependable, it's harder to play with them though but that's part of the challenge.

I don't because I might say something some senile little moron disagrees with and that's fine, but I'm not fine with them in there rage typing /report because of it, of course naturally this is on the low end scale of reasons still however it is one.

I don't because every now and then you see someone getting picked on or abused because of X,Y or Z that they did wrong defend them I have in my time but I should not have to deal with this immaturity, and thanks to h/h I don't have too.

Think that about sums that up there are likely more but those are the ones off the top of my head.

Sekhmet · Sep 03, 2008, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Ok, finally finished reading this entire thread....

I'm a bit confused as too why the PuG guys and the Hero advocates are at each others throats. The play styles are different, the reasons for partying are different, the amount of time (in some cases) is completely different that the individuals can give to the game.

I don't feel I could say it and better thou then Shasgaliel.

Quote:

Now with 7 heroes in my opinion it will be reduced even more. Since most of you do not Pug why the hell you want to make it harder for the ones who do (I mean newbies here, not most of you and not me)?

This is the resonating reason that PuGs will die, now that people can choose 7 heroes why PuG? Like it has been said by all the anti-hero people in this thread, it will destroy PuG because people will take 7 heroes. This is probably the most flawed argument I have ever heard.

I have played this game now since the closed beta of prophecy, back then it was bug or henchmen. And yes, there are some genuinely talented PuGs out there, most of which I recruited and still retain in my guild to this day, conversely I lost count after 20-30 failed attempts and doing a PuG through Thunderhead keep. At which point I took one guildie and henchmen and finished it in half the time. I then later returned and did the bonus with henchmen and completed second try. When I came back to do the bonus I saw the same people close to 4 days earlier, that cause massive over aggros/uninfused/poor builds/trying to afk, still spamming for a PuG to complete the mission.

At that point getting to perdition Rock, I never touched a PuG again till factions. Heroes in now way kill off the PuG. The PuG is a place for people who dare I say it, want to be mentally abused by others. In HA if you take a team of humans, now the only option, people will hound you for being nubbish, but they'll keep you if they need you to go, granted you have the correct rank. Not only that but they wont afk or attempt to cause failure. Why? there is incentive, they want to win.

What is the incentive for a PVE, to complete the mission? they why don't people listen? I'm all for completion with human parties PuG or Guild groups, if available. But why the hell, pardon the language, should I have to accept a failure of a team for the sake of repeating it in 15 minutes after wasting time to find out Kilroy over here loves to over-aggro mursaat w/o infused armor?

The PuG will survive, if the 7 Heroes are implemented, people that genuinely want to PuG will do so just like how people who genuinely don't PuG wont. The loss of members from the PuG community will be people that were forced to be there, due to poor friends lists or poor timing for completion of missions.
In a way those out there afraid of the destruction of PuG should want this to occur faster. Once it happens all of the real failures that want to doom you because of their ignorance, after being flamed enough would just go and H/H it. Your then left with truly devoted groups of talented individuals that want to be there.

JDRyder · Sep 03, 2008, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Salbat

long post

sound to me you just want a single player game, really it does, you dont want to talk to people, you want a pause button, want to play your way "not with team work, and if your time is so "valuable" why do you post on guru?

Pleikki · Sep 03, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Game is allready so easy so why would it need to be easyer? it should be simple 1 hero for each class just

Inner Salbat · Sep 03, 2008, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

sound to me you just want a single player game, really it does, you dont want to talk to people, you want a pause button, want to play your way, and if your time is so "valuable" why do you post on guru?

That would be incorrect if I wanted to PvP then I would make every effort to find people however right now I've no desire to PvP.

Why do I post on guru because this matter interests me and I'm 1 more vote to the pile which I like to hope that AreanNet after seeing the demand might actually do something.

JDRyder · Sep 03, 2008, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Salbat

That would be incorrect if I wanted to PvP then I would make every effort to find people

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Salbat

however right now I've no desire to PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Salbat

Why do I post on guru because this matter interests me and I'm 1 more vote to the pile which I like to hope that AreanNet after seeing the demand might actually do something.

theres a better way to get Anet to hear what you have to say, Email.

sixofone · Sep 03, 2008, 02:29 PM // 14:29

The polls are in: those who want 7 heroes outnumber those who don't 4:1.

I guess that means 80% of those polled aren't worried about the supposed "death of PUGging"!

Even with 7 heroes, people can still PUG. It's just an option, folks. A preference in play-style, which is what GW offered. Not "forced to play with others." Tackle the game with a team, or on your own - it's your choice.

For me, this is kind of like the argument regarding elite areas: should they be H&H-able? Good arguments both ways that all come down to: how I prefer to play the game. How do I derive the most fun out of it?

The ones who argue that 7 heroes will kill PUGs seem to be the ones who have gotten the most enjoyment out of playing that way (challenge, social interaction, whatever). But, as this is only for one aspect of the game (PvE), I don't see the zealous attachment to it. Let people play the way they want! For those who prefer H&H, let them!

eximiis · Sep 03, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Things are simple.

1- ppl that don't pug cause pug are bad.
2- these ppl want 7 heroes.
3- puggers don't want that cause there will be less pug.
4- but non-puggers already don't pug so.........

5- give 7 heroes to ppl who wants to H/H.
6- introduce a new heroes named "Mr. Pug" for the the puggers.

10- Everyone is happy !!

N1ghtstalker · Sep 03, 2008, 02:43 PM // 14:43

people without heroes will never get into groups cuz of everyone using their heroes to fill their party
rather not see this happen

Knight O Cydonia · Sep 03, 2008, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Anet's thoughts 1 year ago on 7 heroes.

Will they change their minds? I wouldn't bet on it, as they see using a max of 3 heroes as part of GW design. I know that Gaile always made a big emphasis that Anet wanted people to group in pairs (2 players 6 heroes) as opposed to do everything on their own (cant be bothered to fish out the thread).

Although people a year ago wouldn't have imagined a PvP / PvE skill split, so I guess anythings possible.

eximiis · Sep 03, 2008, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by N1ghtstalker

people without heroes will never get into groups cuz of everyone using their heroes to fill their party

At the moment, you already never find a pug. That's why ppl use heroes and henchmen.

Chico · Sep 03, 2008, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

i did all of factions with pugs and was done the 2nd or 3rd day the game came out.

LOL. I can say the same about Prophecies, but TRY AND DO IT TODAY. Better yet, try and do it with a new char. Do any complete campaign in NM -PUG ONLY- no henchies, guildies or heroes allowed and then repeat on HM. Once you have done it, if you manage to have the patience you will need, come back and post how much time it took you.

JaiGaia · Sep 03, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

simple as put .... they should allow us to have 7 heroes so we can play the game the way WE want to play the game as well as the way they designed it. If u choose to pug then so be it, if u choose to play solo then so be it, and if solo then yes u should be able to have the ability to have the same build as a all RL person party, hence 7 Heroes. When i played regular i didnt mind the pugs not enen the weak ones, but now w/ less time 7 heroes is an attractive incentive 4 someone like me to play again more reg.

By far the best idea has been the simplest approach to resolve the flag issue, same 3 flagged hero system and the last 4 just like henchies are now, the only difference is theyd be customed skill bars too our liking.

From my personal experience on why i agree same as i did once before is over time more and more ppl are moving on to other games or the fact that there is so many ppl spread out amongst the 4 current GW games that sometimes it makes it near impossible to find a good decent group for where you may need or want to do in game unless ur in an active cooperative guild. Unless ur farming for a title or popular area

PPL joke about, well then they ll just ask to add 11 so u can do elites ... eventually this will be a reality for those who still enjoy playing GW later when the population becomes even more scarce and they are trying to put things in their hall. IMO all of this should be taken into strong consideration by anet as they themself said they never expected GW to be enjoyed the way it was and now after 5 yrs their has to be more compromise to the situation due to the game they redesigned.

Numa Pompilius · Sep 03, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Results may differ, sir.

True, but if you remember to add the time you spent playing before the game was released, perhaps not by all that much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekhmet

The PuG is a place for people who dare I say it, want to be mentally abused by others

That's a bit harsh - I've never laughed so hard as when I decided to try to PUG Aurora Glade. The antics and drama was priceless, and against all odds (and ragequits) we actually succeeded with the mission.

JDRyder · Sep 03, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chico

LOL. I can say the same about Prophecies, but TRY AND DO IT TODAY. Better yet, try and do it with a new char. Do any complete campaign in NM -PUG ONLY- no henchies, guildies or heroes allowed and then repeat on HM. Once you have done it, if you manage to have the patience you will need, come back and post how much time it took you.

you may want to read other post before you start posting, I said that NF killed puging cause of heros. back then there were no heros so pugging was easier cause some good players pugged, thats been my main point in all this in showing how heros need to be removed cause they hurt the game more then help it, and asking for 7 will hurt it even more